#34 - Anna Whipple & Josh Rottman | Animal House Visuals

In this episode, we interview Anna Whipple & Josh Rottman. Josh and Anna are a power couple who created Animal House Visuals to capture love stories around the world. Josh and Anna shoot both photo and video side by side to capture beautiful moments of love.

Before we dive into Josh and Anna’s story if you found some value in this episode share this ep with a friend and subscribe and rate our show. Enjoy this interview with Anna Whipple & Josh Rottman.

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Hosted by Steve Ecker
Produced by Chris Harris

Transcript

0:05

Trust the grind with Steve Ecker. <inaudible> myself. I got this, I got this. I got so hungry. We keep going and you keep going. Today's guest is Anna Whipple and Josh Rottman, Josh and Anna created animal house visuals to capture love stores around the world. Josh and Anna should both photo and video of side-by-side to capture beautiful moments of love. Before we dive into Josh and Anna story, if you found some value in this episode, share it with a friend. Enjoy this interview with Anna Whipple and Josh Rotman. Well, that's a good noise to start on cherish. How did it take a sip before? But that's fine. That's the IPA, our a landlord. When we moved in left us a six pack of, of Austin Beer Works. I think it was the pale ale in our first, Oh, the peace maker. Yeah. I had that one the other night. Super good. Super good. Yeah. Nice and light and refreshing. And I'm glad I'm able to offer you another Boston beer where it's Dawson vibes gone. Yeah, man. I mean just where we're live in Austin. This is my second in-person interview in the garage and I'm with Anna and Josh who run animal house. Visuals. Thank you so much for joining me. Oh, it's our pleasure. Thanks for having us. Yeah, absolutely. So we got the camera set up. Hopefully we get some video out, but Anna and Josh are a couple of capturing love stories across the world. And, and as a Crossman photographer and Josh, I was about to say Adam, for some reason, I don't know why is the sky dive in photographer with a few dogs. So yeah, I'm really excited to just dive into your story. And I mean, since you guys are a couple of yourself and you document other couples, so I think that's really fascinating. So can you guys just like elaborate on, let's say, how did you guys meet and how did you guys launch the business together? Got it. Yeah. Yeah, that definitely got one. And I think it has a lot to do with like where we're at now. Yeah. And I think it has a lot to do with why we started a business together, why we chose to do that and, and why we thought, you know, given everything we've been through that that would be successful. Yeah. Yeah. So how do you guys meet? Let's let's hear it. Okay. We met in Hawaii, which is like my, both of our favorite place. Yeah. That's dope. Yeah. It was, it was a good like chance kind of encounter. So yeah, I, as you mentioned, I'm a skydiver it's, it's kind of like my hobby, my passion outside of work. And so I know a lot of every October in Hawaii, there's a lacrosse tournament and I've been going to this lacrosse tournament as a player, as a filmer for almost 10 years now. So like, since I graduated college and it's like one of my favorite things that happens every year and when I was going this last time, which was not this October because of COVID, but the one before it, I knew her two twin brothers and her sister's husband from when I lived in Baltimore, when I lived on the East coast because I played lacrosse. And So when they were coming to the tournament, Mike asked me to set up a skydiving thing for their whole family. And so it was, it was six people. I didn't know, you know who those six people were or anything, but I met her at the drop zone in Hawaii when, when they rolled up to go skydiving with me. So damn, that is so cool. That's also just like, I wasn't expecting that first off Hawaii skydive and just a really cool recipe for an awesome start. So, and you're at this skydiving trip, you're just showing up, you know, you're just skydiving. Yeah, absolutely. Was there something that you saw in Josh that was like, Oh, like what was your moment where you're kinda like, Oh, like he's because he's done it before or like, I dunno, like, I'm curious, like what made you guys attracted? I think it happened after, but at the skydive sent her, I immediately was like drawn to him because he had this like overwhelming passion for like what he was doing, which I loved. He like immediately came up to me with his camera and like started asking me questions and like introduce himself. And then he had his like GoPro on. So it's all on camera. Like the first time we talked to each other, but That's just his, yeah. His Like his passion was just like, you could just see it on his face. And yeah, that was, that was like immediately. I was like, okay, this is, I like that. Yeah. I know energy is certainly contagious and it's always interesting. Yeah. You could call that. You can, like you pick up on certain things, especially when you first meet people, you know, I, I big component of just like making sure you do your best, like impression, you know, essentially. So you guys Yasmin skydiving then started talking and stuff and you're a photographer, your videographer. What did the conversation of working together? Come up? Well, the very first time we talked about it was like way too early. It was like in the first week that we knew each other, it was still, Oh, wow. Beginning of what ended up being like a, almost two week trip. And so, you know, it was like 10 days or something like that total. Yeah. Yeah. We spent a lot of time together in Hawaii just because we were both there for that period of time and we just hit it off. So we, we talked about it. Yeah. We talked about in the North shore. So, you know, we, we did the tournament and all the events surrounding it in Waikiki. And then we went to the North shore afterwards. And I think that that like shrimp truck was the first time we really talked about that our existing set of skills would compliment each other. Yeah. It would be better together. Yeah. No. And I definitely see that in your work, when I was prepping for this interview, I was looking at the stuff that you guys do. And it's really cool because I feel like a lot of shoots are only just like the photo. And then I saw the behind the scenes shots of you grabbing her photo. And like, it's really interesting on like both sides where it's like, you do two birds with one stone where a lot of, I feel like wedding photographers and out there, I hope I'm not making the wrong assumption, but like they're only like doing photo or they're only doing the video, like where it's like, you guys are a team with the same I envision and the same intention behind the shoot. So I think it translates well into your work. I think that's definitely a, a safe assumption also on the, on like, most people are not doing what we're doing. Yeah. You usually have to go to two separate people and to get like photo from one place, then video from the other. And like, it ends up coming out different. The vision is different. The way that they edit is different, the way that they work is different. So what we're doing is combining all of that and you get it at one place and you know that like, you know, the aesthetic is going to be the same all around. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what I like about your work. It's consistent, whether it's a photo or video, it looks the same where you just mentioned, if you had two different teams, that's going to be a different based off their editing style, their work schedule their workflow. Also, they might not like each other. So That happens frequently. I mean, like as a person who shot a lot of weddings before we teamed up, I was always sort of, you know, at least on the video side of it, I was sort of being controlled to a certain extent by the photographer. The photographer is the one that the couple has entrusted with the timeline of their day when things are going to be happening and what they want it to look like. And so as a video person, you sort of learn to just take a back seat to the photographer, kind of Chimp off of what they're asking the bride and groom to do, or the bridal party or the family or whatever it is that they're trying to achieve in that moment. You kind of just piggyback off of what they've got going on. As the, as the video side of things, it's very rare that they give the video, the like fully, like you're in charge, you're calling the shots of what's going to be happening. And so by combining, I don't have to worry about what that photographer is going to want or, or try to achieve or, or anything like that. Exactly. Because I trust Anna entirely and completely. So like, I don't have to worry about when we show up what the wedding is going to feel like for me as the video guy, because I know I'm just as included in the vision of, of like what our visuals are supposed to be. Whereas before it was a lot of you meet a photographer. When you show up, you spend the first hour trying to figure out their vibe and then, you know, sometimes it goes great and you do your job. And sometimes you're like, Oh, I wish I would have had more control and that's not an issue anymore. It's just something that, that we feel like we've solved for ourselves, which is important. Yeah. And also just the fact that you can go into it with a plan of being aligned from the beginning where you're not meeting that person and trying to figure out their agenda, then how it works with yours, you can go in and be like, this is what we're going for. This is how we're going to get it. And it seems like a nice rinse and repeat kind of process that you can apply to all these different couples and be consistent as well with your aesthetic, where if the couple goes online and sees your work, it's going to be very similar to that where I feel like weddings are so stressful to begin with. And I don't even work them. I just say like I was in my brother's wedding and I just saw the like logistics of like the planning, but with a photographer and all that. So like, it's already like high tense. Like I feel like having the, like YouTube together as a team definitely makes it easier. We hope so. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's hopefully that they feel the same way, but what made you guys attracted to weddings and engagement photos? Because they are very high stress and it's not like you can redo it. That's true. I think that part of that is part, part of that is a draw, I think, but I mean, we come from a little bit different backgrounds in that sense, right? Why, why we chose it, but separate so separately. Like for me, I love capturing expression, human expression, and a lot, a lot of that happens at weddings. You have laughter you have tears, you have joy sadness, a lot of things happening and a lot of emotion. And I love capturing that like Raul the motion and that's just a great place to do it. And love is also a very raw emotion that is really special to capture. That's kind of what led me in that direction. And then Josh just has a lot of experience shooting weddings. So that is kind of how we, Yeah, I think both of us are people who photograph humans at the very base level. Like we are interested in, in humans as our subject, you know, we're not going out and shooting much landscape photography, unless we want to like be making something for our, our house, you know, on the wall or something like that. Yeah. Are like what we are in as subjects are humans and weddings, you know, for whatever you want to say about the kind of visuals of it, they have something that nothing else really has on a day-to-day basis, which is like this roller coaster of emotions that all happens in one day. Every wedding is different to every wedding. You're getting different people, different emotions, different expressions. Yeah. And that as a photographer, like you have to fight every day to find a bunch of real unique subjects who are illicit capable of eliciting emotion in front of your camera. It's not always, it's really the hardest part of the job. Like learning the camera. I assert that anyone can do that. Learning the light. That's a little bit more of a, of a deep dive into, you know, a more complicated skillset. But learning people is really something that like takes a lifetime and it never truly ends. So like, you know, as a photographer, you're trying to find these great subjects to work with that can elicit an emotion in an environment that's unique. That's what makes photographers stand out. Right. And so, you know, for, for whatever you want to say about all the different kind of like wedding people that are out there making different things, it is a place where humans are really experiencing true emotion every time. And that's what draws us to, to want to photograph it. That's where the value comes from. And to your point about like, you can't redo it. That's exciting. Like Not terrifying <inaudible> Because it is real, like whatever you're capturing that day, it's not staged. It's not like practiced for the most part. And so you're looking, you have a whole day to look for those moments that you want to capture with your camera and, and find the right ones. Yeah, absolutely. And I dabbled with photography and I've shot people and it's, Oh, that sounded really wrong. I do not physically shouldn't be shot photographer or photographs of people. And it's tough. It's really, really tough because once you point a camera at someone, they kind of naturally tense up and I find it really interesting how you guys just elaborate on why you're drawn to doing people because it's raw emotions and it's a rollercoaster of emotions where it's highs and lows, but you find really beautiful moments at those moments of weddings and things like that, where I was doing, like students that were having a hard time with school and I'm like, all right, smile. And it just be like a little suburb. And I'm just like, I'll go back to my boss and be like, I got nothing. And it's, it's tough to shoot people where I was naturally drawn to like the landscape and I don't know, stuff that I can control. And I think that that's where it starts for most people picking up a camera is like, you want a subject matter that you have relative control over. And people are like the exact opposite Of that. So, Yeah. Yeah. And it's part of our job is to make sure that they feel comfortable with us pointing cameras at them. Like, you know, so that, that doesn't happen and it feels more natural for everyone. Yeah. And so how do you guys make people comfortable say like it's a nervous couple that don't yeah. Especially on engagement shoots. I think most couples are nervous couples, but I think that we do a good job. I mean, I think that the strength of our dynamic is that we are also a couple in love who is going to go out and experience the same thing that this couple is going to experience. So like at, at its core, our engagement shoots, we try to bring people on an experience that they would typically do with us anyway, you know, or, or at least enjoy doing with us or without us. That's what I mean without us. So like, you know, a couple that really likes hiking, they might want to be put in that environment because that's what makes them comfortable with each other. That's what makes them feel happy and safe. And we're just there to kind of tag along. But some couples want to do something that they've never seen before. This can be a memory that they'll have together moving into the future instead of a place that they've been before or been many times together, they want to see something that they're seeing for the first time. But in either case, like the idea is that they should be having a great time as a couple together. Even if we weren't there, even if we weren't there. Yeah. I love that perspective. And also the idea of doing something new and create a new memory. I was listening to an audio book and they'd talk about like, how do you like, keep the love alive? It's like, well, you do new things together. And engagement photos. That's kind of a one-time thing where he's like, Oh, we went on that awesome hike, even though we're not hikers. Or we went to that really romantic beach, like I saw one of your videos with like the Peaky blinders haircut guy. And I was like, damn, that's a show. I know, I saw, I was like, yeah, I'm getting like another cut again. I used to have one. I saw it. And I'm like, yes, I'm getting that back. But, but no, I was like, that's a very cool scene where you have a new memory with that place that you might have never been before. That's true. And that's one of our favorite shoots that we've actually ever done. And people love it because everything that you're saying, you know, you can see that just by looking at the photo and video. Yeah. And that's a powerful stuff with the work that you guys are doing. You can feel the love like translate in the video and you know, you get a little, worked up a little tears, get to go on. How do you said that? Because like, that's, that's the goal that that's the, the goal is to like take the feeling that they have for each other. And then demonstrate that to all the people that they're going to share this with. And if it's just themselves, that's great. Love between two people is not something that every couple can physically see on a day-to-day basis. What they look like when they truly look at each other is not that they always get to see. And so whether it's the photos that's making them feel that way or the video, that's making them feel that way for us to use visual mediums, to be giving them as many opportunities, to be able to see what they actually look like when they are loving each other is important and valuable. And yeah, I mean, you can, It's really special. That's I guess another reason why we love doing it because it's, we are able to offer something to our couples that like you said, they don't get to see every day. They don't get to see that that love like manifesting through a photo or through a video. Yeah. It captures a moment of time where you're just folding engaged with one another, no phones, no nothing. It's like, you're just there. So as a couple of shooting couples, what makes art your work is mainly focused around love? What makes a good love story? Do you think, I know that's a loaded question. I'm curious, I'm curious. I want to toss that in Anna's <inaudible> I think like for, for listeners who like want to know Anna in a glance, just imagine that every Plaza is a blonde and, and so you'll kind of wonder to yourself, how did Aubrey Plaza ended up shooting wedding stuff? And she definitely has a part of her that is like a real sappy love kind of person, but it's, it's like very much in, she wants it in front of her camera and, and that's where she can like, do a great job with it. And so I feel like she really has a better sense of the love story that's in front of us than, than anyone in the room than me than the couple. I feel like your direction is really the kind of heart of our business. You know what I mean? So like, I, I want to save you and I'll let you Aubrey Plaza out. But I also feel like that's your question to answer. I mean, It's hard, like coming from a place of like photography or photographing a love story. Like for me, what makes a good love story is just again, it's going to come back to that, like authenticity and like seeing a couple really truly being who they are through my lens is, is really, really special. So that's it for me, it's like just authentic people, loving each other for who they are for who they're not for, you know, all the things big and little, which seems like really broad. But I mean, I mean, it is bad, but If you want to like pair that down to like logistics, what that means in terms of like being authentic is for Shane and Bri, it meant going to the beach because there are beach people. Shane is like a total beach bomb surfer guy. And, you know, that's what Bree loves is being on the beach. And that's what she loves about him too. And so we brought them to a place where we could bring out the best parts of themselves and the parts that they like about each other. And that kind of like facilitates, you know, even when Shane's in a suit and breeze in a wedding dress, it's hard to move around in. They somehow are able to translate who they are together in that video, better than almost anyone we've worked with. And I think that if you can facilitate them being in an environment where they can have fun together and you can tap into those parts of each other, that makes them light each other up. That's what makes a great love story. We just want to see who you are and our job as the people with the cameras is to make them feel comfortable showing us that. Yeah. What'd you say that was like the most powerful shoot that you guys did being on the beach with your friends? Or are they your friends? Yeah, So we started this business in a kind of different, We started, but we started by shooting people that we know and that, that we know that have great love stories. Like you said, because why wouldn't we want to show people that. And so Shane and Bree have that love story that we just described. And I think that that's definitely, I don't want to pick favorites, but like that shoot just like means so much because it's everything that we want to be capturing. And not only that, but there are very close friends, so it was just really, really special. Yeah. Yeah. That one stood out to me. Also the one in Brooklyn that you guys did of the couple. Yeah. I would say that's the most meaningful one that's come out of what we've been doing so far, because like, if we're being honest, like our business is new, like I've been shooting weddings for a long time. You've shot weddings and engagements for a long time before you met me. But our business together is only six months old. And so we're just getting started. Yeah. I have a couple of weddings under my belt, which is great, but we really are just getting started. And so the most important shoot to me was Laura and Michelle, because it was our first real, it was our first person who knew us before the business saw the work that we were making and then made the conscious decision to have us be capturing their visuals. That to me is a huge milestone. Yeah, absolutely. It's like a proof of concept, you know, where it's like, not just, you know, your friends being like, Oh, how are you a sprint? You know, like being a favor, but it's like, no, they saw your work. And they're like, we want this same experience that the service that you're providing for our lifts. Exactly. Yeah. They looked at what we had been making in thought. We think that that would be the best way to demonstrate who we are together. And that, that was that's felt made that one feel like a win. And it's what made me feel like I wanted to do an excellent job for them and go beyond it. And like, it really was just an engagement shoot. Most engagement shoots are pretty quick, you know, and we went super far beyond, Well, above and beyond, but they also made us want to do that because like, they were again, the perfect love story. Like they, they just, you're in the room with them capturing these visuals and you can feel how much they love each other just from being behind the camera. And like, we didn't really have to really direct them that much. They were just being themselves. And it was like just easy because we were just capturing who they were together and their love. Yeah. I mean, it sounds like the energy in the room was just easy to work with. And also when things are going good you're well, to do more as well. You said it was engagement shoot. That was supposed to be quick, but it's like, you just fed into what you were given. And I feel like that's where some of the best work comes when it's authentic, natural, and not necessarily having an agenda, you know, where it's like, you just kind of roll with it and setting up that environment for, let the love speak for itself. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny you say that because whenever we're booking stuff with couples and you know, usually you have like a specific time, like a two hour engagement session or an eight hour wedding day or whatever it is, we're always like, okay, so we will pick hours, but like, if something cool is happening or like we see something we're not going to be like, okay, eight hours, see you later. Or like, okay, our two hours is up. See you later. We're like, if like, you know, we're going to stay until we get what we want. And, and if we're seeing stuff that we want to capture, like, then we're there for it. Yeah. Yeah. And that's going to do wonders for your business as well, because business is word of mouth. Like the best, most effective way is your experience with clients and they talk and also with your type of work, they're going to be like, Oh, who did this? I love this. Oh, they're great. We had eight hours. They did 10, you know, and like just little things like that, that's going to compound over time. So I think the foundation that you're laying is really solid and also your work speaks for itself as well. So that's going to just be natural referrals anyway. So then you guys got something really good going, so I got to ask you guys are pretty new in the business. What has been the biggest obstacle that you guys face? Hmm. I guess like the biggest obstacle in terms of like getting work or like the creative part of it, or Like, it could be something like launching or like right now. Like, is there something like for myself right now? I, I have this podcast, I have my brand, I've laid down the foundation right now. What my obstacle is, is scaling it to have more customers and bringing more money so I can do more things. So my thing is like, how do I grow this and make more feasible to be a legitimate business? So that's like, kind of like my example of an obstacle that I'm like, how, like, how do I have to think differently to get over the next time? I liked that. I like that. I think that that was definitely our challenge when we decided we were going to launch. So if, if I want to kind of bring us back six months to the point where Anna and I were in California, not Texas. And we were kind of struggling with jobs that we had and we wanted to, we could feel that we wanted to change in our lives. And so we sort of went back to that initial conversation in Hawaii about our skillsets, seemingly being so complimentary of each other, that we really should stop ignoring that fact. And so I think our initial obstacles were about standing out in the marketplace and differentiating ourselves because we had already concept ID. What was different about us in those, like from the very first week that we were together? Yeah. We knew that I did video, she did photo. We had sort of a different maybe viewpoints of it, but similar reasons for wanting to do it. And the challenge was how do we show people that we offer something different than they're used to seeing? And I think that the combination of video and photo was the first thing that kind of made us realize, Oh, our offering right from the get-go is not the same as what most people have. So how can we really lean into that strength that we have? You know what I mean? That's the, that's the first strength that we kind of like isolated in our brand. And so how can we really lean into that and make sure that every time we do a shoot with a couple that our audience, that their audience, that their family themselves, that us, that we all feel like we made both exceptionally well and that they paired with each other in a way that most people aren't used to seeing that was our, I think that was our initial challenge, but Yeah, it does it all the challenge. We knew how we were gonna do that. Like we knew we had something different than we just need to show people what it is, but I'd say the biggest obstacle initially was just deciding to like, to, to quit our jobs and then go for it. So that, that was like, we went back and forth for awhile. We were like, you know, we're in the middle of a pandemic and why we really want to do this. We're like ready to, to do this. And we know, or we want to make a change. And we really believe in this thing, but like, is it the right time? Like, Was there, was there like a particular moment because it seemed like you guys were kind of debating on the idea of whether to launch it or not. Was there like one moment where it was just like, I'm just going to do it or was it kind of just like naturally nagging at you and kind of being like, okay, I need, I think we should do this. Are we still rolling? Yep. Okay. I think it was, it was like a projection of like things and it was a back and forth for a while. And then finally we got to a point where we just knew, I think we both knew that we were ready to leave our jobs and that it was time to do this thing that we had been talking about for months. And once we like made that decision, it felt so good. We were just like, let's fucking do it. It didn't come without, without like steps along the way to kind of check ourselves. Yeah. I mean, we, like I said, we talked about it for months before ever even deciding, and it was instant. Like, you know what, And, and to be more granular about it, there was like a three month period. So like in September of last year we kind of looked at ourselves and we're like, wouldn't we rather be going and shooting together every day instead of like going and separating ourselves at our jobs and then coming home. And then like talking about what happened at our jobs, separate from each other and only getting really a few hours of the day where we were feeling like totally aligned and connected with each other. And so that was like in September and we started sort of planning, like if we were to do this thing together and not separate, what would that look like? And then we kind of came up with our, what our business concept would be the photo and video together. And so we gave ourselves October and we said, we're going to shoot our faces off in October. We're going to shoot as much stuff as we can, as we think that like is really valuable. And, and like, you know, as many couples as we think have great stories and who would be great subjects as we can book. And we're going to use that as our proof of concept. And that's what we're going to launch with. So November was all editing. It was just us figuring out what our tones were together, figuring out what our edits looked and felt like, you know, in terms of video. And then December, it was like, okay, if we get through October, then we can move on. If we get through November, now we can move on. So we're still working our jobs at this time. Right. So like, I would say that month of October also, you said, was there a moment when you realized, or like when you decided, and like those days that we drove to San Diego to shoot a couple, like those days where we were working side by side all day and then editing and doing whatever we were doing, or like some of the best days that we had had in a while. And we, we loved it. We were just like, dude, we just spent a whole day working together, doing what we love and like, why are we not doing this every day Is so awesome. And also, like, I just had flashbacks of like being in like a relationship and you hear about the other person's Workday and like, you have to act like he cares. You just don't then it's like, but that's just like part of it. So I, I thought that was like really cool, how you guys are, like, we can just spend all day together, experienced the same thing, playing to our strengths. And also you both love the craft of video and photo. So it just kind of seemed like a pair that worked really well. And also you, you did the steps, you know, to be like, okay, let's before we like, just quit everything, let's do a few of our friends and test it out before we even like do it. So we're very measured about it. Yeah. Yeah. That was a long time coming type of thing. Yeah. Yeah. We were careful in something that was inherently sort of risky. Yeah. It also kind of seemed like the universe, like was sending you guys to do this. Like you guys met, then the first week you talked about making this business, then eventually as you guys have in data and stuff, it kind of seemed like it was bound to happen eventually. And I think that the whole like universe part of that, like there's a certain point at which yet, I mean, I love that this is like a podcast about entrepreneurship at its core, because there's a certain point where you really have to like take inventory about whether the person currently cutting your paycheck is in a better position to be making choices about your life than you are. And I think that that was something that like was very challenging for me to, to kind of like put the trust back in myself that like, yo, I really think that like if I was the only person in charge of my day today, I think I could do more productive things. I think I could make more creative content. I think that I could spend more time with my camera and less time in meetings. I think that I could be with my person way more than I am now. And there was a trust factor that kind of went into that, like learning how to trust myself again, learning how to remind myself that I am capable of making the best choices for me in my life. And that I don't need like a structure around me when I really know what my direction is going to be. And I think that what we're talking about in terms of like those first steps was, was really about that. And then, you know, October came so naturally to us because I feel like that we had already, we had already kind of learned to trust ourselves, which was, I think for, for me personally, one of the most challenging things. Yeah, Sure. Absolutely. I mean, we were conditioned to, you know, get that nine to five, get a nice 401k and things like that. But then a part of your like soul begins to like fade away and die essentially to put Frank where I worked jobs like that, where I just felt my entire mentality, mood, everything just began to suffer because I wasn't fulfilled at work. And I feel like the whole trust yourself, you know, as cliche it is. But like, it is one of those things where it's like, I'd rather put money on myself and lose it than have someone else, like you said, your manager dictate the way that I live. Like I'd rather make the call on black versus like, Hey, what are you? Like ask the guy next to me. Like, what should I bet? You know? So I really liked that point that you brought up about like trusting yourself and believe in yourself because it is a very, like, people don't really talk about like, when you do make the jump, it's a lot of, self-doubt like, it's an overwhelming amount of self doubt. Like we went through it. Yeah. So how did you guys get through that? I think, well, first of all, I think we were lucky to have each other. Cause if it's something that you're going through on your own, which is great also, because even more of a challenge, you don't always have that like partner that's going through it with you. So I think we have in each other was huge just to be able to talk through the things that like we were feeling and remind each other how great we are and, and talented we are for sure. And then also the support of like people around us, our families and friends that were like rooting for us. And yeah, I think, I think like having support and having people that really believe in you definitely, it's helpful to hear those things that you sometimes forget and sometimes tell yourself, why am I doing this? I can do this. This is crazy. Yeah. And I think, you know, when I listened to a good amount of podcasts and especially once to talk about the subject, because I've freelanced before I frankly prefer it kind of over the last decade, vacillated back and forth between freelancing and then shooting full-time somewhere and then going back to freelancing and then having a new opportunity to shoot full-time somewhere, I've kind of gone back and forth, but I always ended up freelancing again because it really is the place that I feel most free and most comfortable. And so that part of it, you know, I had a lot of confidence in, in like going back to the freelance market, but I couldn't have done it without her because like, I think that this is the part that I don't hear most podcasts. Most people talk about how they hated their job and it made them feel stale inside and they had some part of them that needed to speak and then they left so that they could go do that. What I don't hear very often is about what happens when you really liked the job that you had before, but there's still a part of you that needs to leave it. But how do you navigate when both options are seemingly good? You know, like I worked at a place that I believed in. I was in that company from the very start. I spent an inordinate amount of time trying to make that job as awesome for myself and for the audience that watched our stuff as possible. And it wasn't like, I hated my job. It was just like, there was part of me that needed to speak and that wasn't happening with like the environment that was going on there. And I think that Anna was the one who showed me that like, that isn't as different in terms of what you need to go do than hating your job. It's just, we need to go do this thing that we have in our heads together, because until we go do it, it's never going to stop ringing in the back of what I've had, that we can do this together, that we can live a life that is more purpose-driven and is with like hand-in-hand with each other. And those were the two things that I felt like I was missing. And so like, despite really liking my job and really being passionate about the content I was making, I wasn't able to be in the world with my camera enough. And I wasn't able to hold her hand while I was doing it enough. And so those were the two things that were most important to me. And so like, even though I liked my job, I was very capable of leaving. And that was where the support system for me was really instrumental. Yeah, no, that's super interesting about that point of a lot of, I mean, myself included, I hated my job. I still, I made a planner and that was like my that's my story. But I also talked to a lot of people, like I just talked to the tattoo artist. She was like, I was at a well-established shop. I went in four days a week, did my thing. And it was good. It was a good job. It was a good life. But then he had like this sense of like calling of like, he wanted to do it his way. You know, like when you see like you can love your job, but then there's little things that you want it to be out in the world more. And also holding Anna's hand, you can't be doing that at that current job that you're at. So there's like, you kind of have to like listen to that inner voice and find a way to make it happen. And first off I applaud you for doing that because I often like thinking to myself, if I didn't have my bad work experiences, I don't know if I would be sitting in this chair right now. You know where it's like, I'm talking to you too. I don't know if I would have launched a business where I figured it takes a lot of guts, even when things are going good to leave the comfortable and pursue what really like gets you going. Yeah. That's like incredibly accurate because just the word leave, the comfortable is incredibly accurate and, and it's really hard. It's terrifying, but like breaking that mindset and that mold that like we've been, you know, trained to fall into since day, like you said, school, college, I, a five type of thing. That feeling of like, this is what I'm supposed to do. This is comfortable. Like, I love my job. I loved my job too. I worked for an amazing company and she loved her job. Yeah. I mean, when we met, like I was just head over heels for my job. And so yeah, I think it is, it's really hard to, to find that, you know, what's, what's important. And, and how do you, how do you let yourself become uncomfortable to be able to figure out what is important, you know, in life for you, Have you guys found that the more you get uncomfortable, the more you grow and just gain more knowledge and things like that. Definitely. Yeah. It doesn't come without, it's like, that's where, I mean, that's where risk is. Like you're set, you make a plan for the day and you get to go try to execute that plan. And sometimes you swing and you miss, and sometimes you crush the ball and you hit a home run and it's going to be different every time. And it really like the only thing that, that can, that makes a difference is preparation and luck. And so, you know, the only thing that I have control over is how many times I get, go try to do that. So how many at-bats you have? Like, that's something you can control, whether you hit the ball or not. I mean, it's in your control. If you practice and you get the reps in. And that's like what we try to do with ourselves and our business, our cameras, but at its core, every time you go out to do another shoot, you run the risk of failing and that's where you freak out. And you're like, I don't know if I can do it. Or I don't know if this vision that I came up with is going to work for this. Or we got here and there's way more people than we thought that there was going to be. And now everything's going to get thrown in the blender. And we got to come out the other side with a w that's. Our only job is to like, take a bunch of stimulus that we didn't plan for and be able to get through it, like professionals who care about our subjects. And the only way to do it is just to do it a whole bunch and you're going to fail at it. And, and if you can be okay with those failures and that's, I think the real litmus test for like, can you hang in the entrepreneurial world is like, how many times can you get? Yeah, it was so true. My mom, my mom is like one of the first people that told me that I was working like a sales job over summers in like college. And it was, it was actually photography with sales photography. And you had to like approach people and ask to take their picture, like without knowing that it was on the beach and Okay. Was it scopes? Oh yeah, no. I grew up going to ocean city. All right. For those that don't know, scopes is an iconic ocean city thing, Maryland, where these people will just go up and you're just, I could just be having a beer and then Anna comes running up. Hey, do you want to do like a human pyramid with your family? And like all these crazy, like little like stunts and like gimmicks in front of everyone. They're awesome. They come in like little, like key chain things. They're great. I do them as kids, but like, my it's funny because my mom said I should do that because I had a camera and I was like, no shot. I was like reserved, nervous. And I liked the idea of me going up to random people be like, do you guys want your photos of doing ridiculous stuff? That's so fun. Yeah. So I did that job for four years. My first year I was, came into it, incredibly shy, like super shy. Didn't talk to strangers, like very, very into whatever. What's that word? Introverted. Introverted. Yeah. And my first summer was really hard because I was terrified. But I remember to this day, the one thing my mom said to me, I called her from the beach, like in tears, because I couldn't get anyone to say yes to me. She was like, don't look for people that are saying yes. She was like, see how many nos you can get today because every, no is going to bring you closer to a yes. So she was like, go see how many nos you can get and let me know. And I guarantee you, you're going to cut, like find a yes, among those nos. I still like that. Yeah. Put your, put yourself in the field of play and not focus on the rejections, you know, where you could go up to 10 groups of people and they all say no, then you're like, that's a day. But it's like, Oh, well, today I'm going to do double that and reach out to 20. Maybe two of them actually say yes. Yeah. And I think that a long history for both of us in, in separate ways, a long history of experiencing rejection is what made us feel so comfortable starting this business together now, because I I'll, I'll make a skydiving analogy. And I know that's tough because most people aren't skydivers, but I was getting coaching from my buddy, Randy Linde. And Randy said, there's a certain amount of shitty jumps. You just got to get out of your way because controlling your body up there, when you're going, that speed is really difficult. And so there's a certain amount of just messing up that you're gonna do. And so between jumps one and a thousand, you're going to mess up something on almost every one of those jumps. It's just about getting those jumps behind you. So that you're a little bit better and a little bit more experienced and a little bit more used to doing what's necessary to correct the mistake that you're going to make. Does that make Yeah, absolutely. I mean like put yourself in those situations where you have to learn where I don't know, I've only been skydiving once in our head, a little Italian man that was before and I'm six, three. So that was a very awkward, yeah. He was a backpack and then we're landing and he was like, all right, put your legs up. I put my legs up as high as possible. And I was still taller than him. And we just fucking smacks and shit. And I was like, how did I get the littlest tallying man? When like, I don't know. Maybe they thought I was like a sick joke. Like let's put the line. That's exactly what they do. They take the smallest Tanem instructors and put them with the largest passengers because well, two reasons, the first reason is because of weight. So like you have to be under 500 pounds, the total group of you. So if you put a, do two, six, seven behind you, it's not going to fly. It's like, I took my, I took my buddy Mike, who is six foot seven. And they put the tiniest student and he literally, his feet were off the ground when they were in a sky van, which is like where the, the back comes out of the thing. So Mike had to run this dude, like piggyback style, all of the back of the plane. I know what it's like for a passenger to like, have to make that choice on his own. So I've been in this situation and like, we're on the ledge. And he was like, put your feet out. And he's like, I'm going to rock back once and we're going to go. Yep. No, he went in twice. So he rocked back and then like, there's phone of me just petrified because I saw the view. Then we went down. But if I had this little man like on my back and say, you need a running joke, like you're out all your goddamn mind To this day. I've probably filmed 50 tandems at this point. And to this day, it's one of the most unique ones I've seen because what a combination of factors. But the point is the same and skydiving to me is such a good metaphor for so many things. But the reason I like it is because there's very rarely a skydive where you don't learn something. And what I mean by learning is you don't mess up something, you do it poorly and then have someone tell you what you did poorly. And then go try to implement things that will improve that failure. Next time. That's what I love about Scott. I mean, it's like a very cut and dry, you will fail. So get up and then go do it again. And not all things that are entrepreneurial are that easy to, to like get up and do again because the feeling of rejection doesn't make you want to do it better. Next time. It makes you want to crawl in your room and cry forever. Like there's, there's a, there's like a difference. And so skydiving has this amazing exhilarating component to it that when you mess up, you're eager to go, try to learn how to do it better. But in business things, when you get rejected by a company that you want to do work for that experience for, for everyone, doesn't make you want to go try again with the next business or go try again with that same business. But once you've experienced enough rejection, you re recognize that it isn't personal and it isn't truly a reflection of what your potential is or what you're capable of. It's just an invitation for you to try again and do it better and think about what you can do to implement more successful attempts. And I think that that's why we were really confident going into like launching our business because there was a part of us that both felt like we've already run the gamut of rejection. You know, her through scopes and me through my, my freelance business. And we were ready to take rejection in whatever form it was going to come, because we had a vision for how many couples that we can make happy. Yeah. Oh no, it never gets easy because I mean, I think entrepreneurship in a nutshell, 15 minutes, you're on top of the world, 15 minutes later, you're in rock bottom sewer. Just like questioning everything, that company that you wanted to work for just said no to your email. And you're just like, what? And I really, I don't know everything you just said really resonated with me because I feel like there's so much that isn't talked about with like building something that you really care about. And the thing is, it's really just putting in the reps and putting yourself out there. Because from what my experience with this podcast, I was terrified to send a DM, to reach out, to get someone on a guest. I'm like, Oh, they got this many followers or whatever metric I was like, worried about the more I did it, the more I found people are open to working with you. And also you'll never know until you send it. And the worst thing that they can do say no, or not read the message, but that it's not personal. Like to your point, business is not personal, but like, we love to make things personal. We love to make it about our self-worth. Yes. Yeah. And that's, that's the most important part of being an entrepreneur is recognizing that your business is like sometimes inextricably connected with your sense of self. And so to be able to navigate that in a way that helps you improve as a person and helps you become closer to the thing that you envisioned for yourself. Like, I think it's really the only form of, of like, I don't know, like professional life that affords you that opportunity in your own terms. Does that make sense? Yeah, I'd be as I it's very like, society loves labels. Like I think about this a lot, you know, where it's like people say, Oh, I'm an artist, but then they like associate themselves with, as a starving artist versus saying like, I'm a creative, you know, where it's like, I don't know. I feel like people playing into these like stereotypes or labels of like a certain story versus like looking at a big picture. It's like, no, I create artwork that provides love and joy to others, you know? And like kind of shifting the perspective. I was talking to some musicians the other day and like, I don't know. I like the idea of like the street performer came up and it's like, Oh, people think like they don't have any money, you know, they're struggling, but it's like, no, that musician is playing music, their gift and sharing it with the world. I mean, that's how ed Sharon got discovered because he was on the streets in Ireland. Yes, Ireland. I was like, is he Scottish? No, but like he like put himself in positions to be discovered. And you never know. I think it's to the original point that you're bringing up, you just got to put yourself out there and keep trying and putting in the reps and try and fail. I think the ed Sheeran thing is interesting because you know, I've never heard him talk about those initial experiences. I'm sure there's lots of stuff online that you could listen to, but I wonder where, whether he was performing in that environment to be discovered, or if he was important performing in that environment because a part of him needed to perform For people. Yeah. I don't think That that anybody who is going out on, you know, third street promenade in Santa Monica is thinking that they're going to be the next best thing that morning. Like maybe some people are, are just delusional enough to like, have that actually happened to them. But I think most people have some part of themselves that needs to be expressed in a way that they can't do at home. And so they're just going there to, to like, be that creative part of themselves. And if they happen to get discovered along the way, I'd share in style, then, then great. But like, I think that that's what, what we do also, like we just are trying to go take pictures and videos for people who we think it'll make happy And make us happy along the way. Yeah, absolutely. And that's kind of from my experience as well, it's like just put yourself out there, sign people up, like in my case, like talk to everyone because you learn so many little gyms from so many different people. And like, I don't know where this podcast is going to go, but I'm just like having fun with it. And I think that's like to the ed shared point, like I think he just went out there and he's like, I'm writing music and I need to be heard. Yeah. Like, I don't know if his intention was to get to S I don't think so, because it was like a small town in Ireland. So like, I mean, he was just doing it for the craft and to like, learn how to be better life, you know, for when he does sell Wembley, you know, like you gotta put in the reps before you get to that big stage and play with the big dogs. So, yeah. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. Is there anything that you guys want to talk about? Any questions, things like that. I first off, I've been loving this combo, by the way, like anything about your business, any little things like that. I mean, I I'm so hesitant to do the plug thing because it's like, it feels so counterintuitive to me because I listened to podcasts so much that I don't know how to plug things, but like follow us, I guess. So we'll cue it up. So we'll do the rapid fire questions, but I just, before we dove into that, I just wanted to see if like you wanted me to be like, so when was the first moment? Or, you know, like, Oh, like questions you should ask us. Yeah. I think that the only question that I came with was like, what about seeing our business made you be like, okay, this is a good lesson for entrepreneurs, or it's a good case study for the people who listened to our podcast. Yeah. So, okay. So you asked me a question. I was like, okay, that's really interesting because I was like trying to phrase it, like in a way that I could cute off for you. So what I was drawn about you guys is first off the static of the way you got shoot. I think it's really cool. And as a creative myself, I really admired it. I noticed that consistency on both video and I was about to say audio, video and photo. And I just kind of looked into your work. And I was like, this is really genuine, really raw. And also there's a curiosity with me, as I mentioned, I've photographed people before and I had a really hard time with it. And also I know a lot of photographers and videographers refuse to do weddings and that type of work because it's so tough. So I was more like, it was very personal curiosity since it seems like you guys really enjoy finding those moments of joy and love, which I love your viewpoint on that because just kind of me personally, I hated shooting people. I mean, we love shooting people and we love when their stakes stakes are important to both of us. That's really cool because those two things made me hate or not hate photography, that photography, where I was like, it wasn't enjoyable. And that's kind of where, when I started to do photo shoots of people, that's where my disinterest kind of faded away from it. But what I, so back to your original question, just kind of frame it up. I was really like, I admire that you guys were a couple and kind of doing the same thing and utilizing your skills together because a lot of people, you know, they say don't have business with your friends. That's like a classic thing that they say, but I feel like there is something really cool when you do build something together, you know, whether it's a relationship, a friend or whatever, like there's something about knowing the people that you're building, something with that's more meaningful and having an aligned mission. So that's why I was interested in your business. And also, I mean, just the work speaks for itself too. So, So why don't I ask you a question then? What, what, what is challenging about, about, you know, like working with your friend, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. So yeah. I mean, so you guys, first off being in a relationship is already hard enough. Also running a business is already hard enough. You guys are doing both. How are you guys handling that? How are you handling it? Really cool. Ask yourself the question again to stall for time. It's, it's like work, you gotta put the work in every day and it's like two separate types of work. Like you said, relationship and business. And we try to like take care of both of those things, like as their own thing so that, you know, our relationship is getting the love and care that it needs. And our business is also getting the love and care that it needs. And it's not always that perfect. Like sometimes stuff gets mixed up and doesn't, this stuff gets mixed up with personal stuff and we try our best to like, make sure that that doesn't happen as often, you know, in ways that mean just communicating, I think is, is like huge. And it's something that like that since we started this business, we're learning so much about each other, How we communicate And what our styles are and that we didn't realize before we had to work together. And so Has there ever been like certain, I don't want to say like exercises or certain moments where you're like, we need to communicate. I've heard of people doing like a burnable. Wow. I can't talk open up Sundays where it's like, whatever's on your mind. No judgment Sade out. Like, do you guys have like, anything like that where, or has it just been more fluid dialogue throughout the day and things like that? I think for us, like if it's gonna come out, usually it just comes out. Like, that's an interesting idea though, open up Sundays. But like we were just saying like, honesty is just such a huge, huge part of it. And like being able to open up about Without fear of judgment and things like that. Yeah. And so with like relationship stuff and business stuff, it's, you're adding like another layer or two to it, but you still have to be able to communicate and be honest about things that like originally, if you're working with someone that's not your friend or your partner that you wouldn't like worry so much about how that interaction is going to go or like, you know how the day to day things go. But now that you're doing it with someone that's really important to you, you just have to consider that And, and to value it and to love it. Because if you don't like having those conversations, if it feels uncomfortable for you to be like vulnerable and honest and, and to express your needs or your shame, whatever it is, if you don't like that, it's going to be a real challenge for you to have a business with a person that you're supposed to experience those things with. And so it is not always easy, but it is about reminding yourself that there is inherent value in doing that with your person. Because, you know, I think that for, for a lot of jobs, that's the most difficult part is like truly communicating with the people who are maybe in a position of authority over you or a position, you know, where they're taking like orders from you or direction from you. And they're underneath you to be really vulnerable with people where the power dynamic is not equal is extremely challenging. And so I think that in, in the hardest moments, you have to remember that like the alternative is like the alternative to like having these conversations with the person you love and you care about where you actually extract value through the, those hard conversations. The alternative is like being back at work where nobody fucking cares how your vulnerability is doing that day. You know what I mean? And, and what, what often happens, at least in my experience at the numerous full-time jobs that I've shot at is stuff gets swept under the rug and it festers. And it ends up At a dynamic at the, at the sort of like end of your road together that could have been cleared up much, much earlier by clearly communicating and actually valuing the things that the other person is bringing to the table. The person underneath you is bringing to the table or whatever it is, that's the strength of working with a partner. Yeah. So if you can lean into that and really like, even when you are at odds with each other, to be able to look at each other and REM and know that there is value in the conversation that you're having, whether or not you're feeling good about how it's going or that you have to have it, or any of those things, if you can remind yourself that with each one of these conversations, just like the reps in the field, you're going to get better at what you do together. That's where the value in having a partner like we have. Yes. Yeah, no, I love those points about, especially the one, I just had so many flashbacks when you said stuff gets swept underneath the rug and they just get stronger. And when you don't address it and I I've had a manager or I've just had like, you know, people in those types of environments, they don't want to own up to mistakes. Correct. You know, where it's like, if something goes wrong, find a way to get yourself out of it. And I try and live with honesty, integrity and things like that. And that really bothered me because I'd rather just be like, Hey, I fucked up. Yeah. And let's just move on, we'll address it. But then it's like, I feel like the work culture can be a way to like, show no mistakes, be perfect. And, Oh, there is a mistake. How do we avoid it? And how do we find a way to have it not come up at versus like, that's just going to bite you in the ass way harder. And it's just very, I don't know. I just, I really liked what you said about like, just the honesty of being upfront and just addressing it. Because when you are honest, it just, I don't know. It just makes everything so much better. Like no need to make up lies about like problems and things like that. It's just like, just address it together. Yeah. And when you have like a foundation with somebody that comes from a place of like trust and caring and like those things that you don't think about when you have like a manager at work, you don't think that like, that managers should like trust you and should care. But like, you don't think about that. You're not like this is my, is this coming from a place of like them caring about me? Probably not, but it should like, and reminding yourself in those difficult moments and in those difficult conversations, like, okay, even though I don't like what maybe this person is saying to me, I know that he cares about me and that it's coming from a place of him caring, not from a place of like, just wanting to tell me what I did wrong. Or like, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. That's super UDP is like, I feel like when you're a managerial role and you're kind of, or I've only been on the other end of it, but like, you hear your manager's point of view, then it's like, well, you just don't understand me, blah, blah, blah. You know, like you don't, you're not reading it to the full context also. Like you're not that close with your manager, right. Like on a personal level, all so it's very like, it's, you can be, it can be mistaken a lot of different ways and you go home and you like, think about it. It's like, why did he say it that way? You know, I don't know, just a lot of little things where it's like, you guys actually know one another, so it's very transfer. Like you can know what you hear one another essentially. Yeah. Yeah. And I would also say like, if you're thinking about starting a business with your friend, like, it is important to like, to really know the person. And I would say that for us, like, it has been a lot of work. And like, we went through a lot of stages before we got to the one that we're at now, which is like very aligned, very, you know, on the same page and really happy and accomplishing things. But like, we went through a stage where like, we COVID happened and like we had just moved in together and like, it was tough. It was work. Like we had to really get to know who we were at each other's core. And it was not easy. It was, it was a real test because I know, I mean, I was in a relationship and I mean, I wasn't living with her and stuff, but like, I dunno, like being separated and stuff, like it's a test, you know? And like, I feel like Kobe was like a really big test for a lot of couples. Yeah. Figure it out. Okay. Is this a person? You know, I mean, because it's a biggest test individually for a lot of people as well. Yeah. Just figuring it out, having everything stripped away and like, I mean, being isolated can't go anywhere and things like that To cite our example of like, you know, our couple illness throughout all the COVID nonsense as unique. Because I think that most couples had a choice. Like if you live together, You already lived together. You already lived together. So like you knew what it was like to live pre COVID with them. And now you were going to choose like, whether I want to live with this person post COVID, but she moved in literally the day that quarantine started. So she moved in on Saturday. Oh, wow. Yeah. From Maryland to California to start living with me after having visited twice, you know, a place that is really It's amazing to live in. So like she had, I Visited twice. It was a amazing experience both times. So super social place. It's got the beach, it's got all these cool people, all these cool places. And then she moved there and all of that stuff closed in an instant. We were basically like locked in this house at the top of the Hill together. Yeah. I mean, in no uncertain terms, like that's what, So we didn't really have a choice. Like it happened to us, not like we didn't live together first or like we didn't meet during COVID and then like, well, we already know what it's like to be alone during COVID let's be together. And Covid, it was just like, this is what you guys got. And so now you're either going to survive it together and be better off, or you're going to go, you go your separate ways. And that was a true, true test. And I think that that was the difficult work that set up the foundation for this business. We didn't even know it. Yeah. And also the thing there's kind of like my takeaway is there's so many distractions that you can be in and experiences that you can do together and things like that. But like when you rip everything away, like, you know, that's the true like compatibility tests of like, can you stand one another when you're literally no distractions outside, you can't go anywhere. You can't go to the beach, you're locked in. Like, do you guys want to tear each other's head off or like cope and find a way to talk things through. So I think that's a big, big, I mean, accomplishment for you guys And your relationship. It's probably the thing we're most proud of is something that is, it required. I mean, for me, the things that I'm most proud of are always the things that don't seem to have an end to them. Like, am I, am I like, I cited the kind of like camera light people stuff earlier. Am I proud that I learned how to use a camera? Sure. But like, I don't think that that was the hardest thing that I've ever accomplished, but I'm proud of the way that I interact with people when I, when I'm photographing. And I feel like this is a similar thing. Like it is precisely because doesn't have like an end that we have like, Oh, we now, we now everything's just hunky Dory. That I'm most proud of it is because it's the thing that takes work every single day. And that's the thing that's most close, closely related to being an entrepreneur. It's a thing that requires work every single day. And if you can't enjoy that work, you're never going to survive. So learning how to enjoy it together, even when it's difficult is like the whole journey that we're on in the first place. Absolutely. And I can relate to that point because you know, you launch congrats. Everyone's like, well done high fives, but then it's like afterwards, it's like keeping the momentum going. It's a very lonely road and also it's not going to happen overnight. So if I was selling toothbrushes, I would equate like three months in, you know, but like this, like I get to connect with people like you and things like that. And also like, I believe my products can make an impact on the world. So that's what fuels me where I feel like you need a really solid why behind any business project that you pursue and your white seems like to light up people and use that device camera to create some beautiful maps. Yeah, definitely. And I think you're definitely right about the momentum. Like if we want to shift the conversation to be more about content and about like what it takes to survive in that world, it is challenging to convince yourself that you want to be making the kind of content every single day to please essentially other people get more business coming into your door, whatever. Like, there's definitely a, like a dynamic between, you know, wanting to rest and wanting to like be pumping out the work that you think will make a difference in the world. Like you said, and, and that is a difficult one to navigate to and has been, I think the biggest learning block for us, because we know we can make it, we know like we can capture it, but making it for our couple is one thing. But making it for an audience of people who is not our couple yet, but we want to be is another thing. And learning how to take the things that we make for couples and like sort of repurpose it for social and repurpose it for other people to sort of consume in a marketing capacity has been more challenging than the actually getting it for the client part. Absolutely. I mean, I heard this other day, but basically like businesses now it's a business and also media company, but it needs to have both correct. And it's very challenging where five years ago, being a media company, wasn't necessarily a thing for a business. Correct. Where that's something I've struggled way for. It's like, I just want to like go away on remote Island. Never posted on social media again. Yeah.<inaudible> yeah. And it's crazy because like, our job is to make visuals, which is like, what is needed for social media. It sounds like it would be really easy. Like, all you gotta do is put this stuff up that you make, but like, it is a whole nother world. It is like mentally exhausting. So social media is just, It's so much. And like, it's so distracted as well, because like for awhile I was focusing on like building the social content and I was like, I'm making some cool stuff. People are like respond to it. But at the same time, I'm not moving my business where the business is the bread and butter of the company. So it's like, yeah, it's very interesting, like having these two buckets and it's like, where do you feel your energy and stuff like that. So it's true. Yeah. It's tough. Yeah, man, That's a whole can of worms. I say that that really is a whole can of worms, but yeah. Yeah. Well, for our first year, we're just, we're just trying to focus on people that really want to work with us instead of like over exhausting ourselves and trying to like become so, you know, social media famous or whatever, you know, so that's kind of where our focus is at. It's like we've launched and the people that know us and care about us have been really supportive and have shared our work with their friends and family. And from that has come a lot of work. So that's like been really great. I mean, that's, that's the right way because like, you could have a hundred thousand followers, but bringing in no money, like Something that's sort of satisfying about having the people like in your inner circle, be the people you work with first. Yeah, absolutely. Because you truly care about what you make for them. It's not just like a transactional thing. You're invested personally. You want to do a great job for these people because they've been there for you. They believed in you before you believed in yourself and they've given you an opportunity to show like them and yourselves and the world, what you're capable of making. And so I think that starting there was part of our strategy. We didn't want to be the people who were blasting Facebook ads right out of the gate. We wanted to put the marketing out on our channels first and see how the people we were closest with, who we trusted the most reacted to it. And we would let that sort of guide us in how we were going to move forward. If nobody came through and booked us, then we'd know we did something off, but it's okay because the whole world hadn't seen it yet. So where's the harm in that. But instead people did start poking at us and they told us that they liked what they saw and that gave us like the fire within to know that we can reach further than our, than our inner circle also. And so right now we've sort of like looked at that, that move from, you know, if your circle has three tiers, like a Simon Sinek says, or like the people closest to you are the, the ones who you can really like lean on the hardest at the first stages of being an entrepreneur, we kind of like had the discussion about, do we move into the second tier or do we really stay here? And that was a conversation about creating stuff for social versus creating stuff for us and for our couples. And we landed on let's let the first year really be about the people who are going to come to us organically. Yeah. There will always be a place where you can do paid social. Yeah, absolutely. It will always be there. Yeah. It's not going away and there will inevitably be more platforms for it, you know, Tik, TOK, wasn't even a thing, you know, when we first talked about this business. Yeah. And now it's like one of the places that we get the most business from if we want it to. So we've sort of chosen to kind of pump the brakes on that side of what our marketing could be. And instead focus on who's right in front of us, who are the people who we're going to care about the most? Not that we wouldn't care about every one of our clients, like, you know, equally and try to make something visually amazing. But I don't know. I think that you've heard the way that we talk about social media. Like it's not our favorite part of our day. And it feels like we're always trying to do it to please someone who's not us. And when we had to think about how what's going to make us happy on a day-to-day basis, like, is it going to be trying to make a 52nd clip for Instagram? That's gonna make someone else think we're awesome for us for just the two of us and our personal opinion. That's not something that's going to move the needle for us, but what is going to move the needle for us is looking at our work side by side that night, and like having a glass of wine and being proud of what we did. And so it'd be proud of the reaction that the couple gave us through email or, you know, being able to go out to dinner without thinking about all the stuff you hadn't done for your social. It's important. The place I worked at before this, we were a business and a media company. And we were just as successful of a media company as we were a business. And it is exhausting trying to keep that funnel going. It just never ends. That's, that's something that I've realized actually this past week of like the media company business, where I'm at the point where it's like, I don't want to do the media stuff. Like I I'm looking at to like, bring on someone to be like, Hey, like I need this from you. And I'll be like, yep, here we go. And then just like, let them deal with all that random stuff, because it is like, you only have so much attention and you gotta play into your strikes. And if like social is not a strength of mine, but it's like, I have a general idea, but I feel like bringing on people that are passionate about that will just do wonders. So yeah. Shout out to my sister. Yeah. Oh yeah. No, but that's Yeah. Cause social media is for the relentless, in my opinion, I am not. I'm a person who likes to relent every once in a while. I want to kick my feet back and not have to worry about what I haven't done today. And so in this world to be that type of person. Yeah. I mean, I think that anybody in the entrepreneurial space would give you the opposite advice. They would tell you, be fucking relentless, hit this thing as many times as you can every day. And that will drive success. Okay. Yeah, there is behind it. But also like these people were saying that message have like teams where it's like, it's tough as like an individual entrepreneur to produce that much content all the time. I'll move the needle on your actual business. Yeah. And it, it comes from an relatively narrow definition of what success looks like. And that was important for us in creating a business together, to discuss with each other. What do you think a successful business that you own and operate looks like in terms of the hours you spend and where you spend them and, and what type of leisure time you get and things like that. Like, those are not the same for every person. And so for the person who can afford to be unrelenting in all of their parts of life, then I applaud them and frankly have a certain amount of envy. But what is valuable to me is not that all the time it is that when it needs to be that and when there's steaks and when there's a great subject and I can get behind why I should be unrelenting today, there's no feeling that's more empowering as a business person to just like, want to crush the thing that's in front of you. But I don't always, I'm not always fueled by that mentality. And so for me, one of the best parts of getting to found this business was talk about who we are and our life first, and then talk about how our business could compliment and make that life more colorful. Does that make sense? Yeah, since I feel like there's a lot of pressure to, I don't know, like, I feel like entrepreneurialship that it's like midnight hours and blah, blah, blah. But it's like, no, like it should be on your own terms, you know, if you want like mega millions then yeah. Do the eight posts a day, do crazy 4:00 AM, wake up. Like don't go to bed until one like, yeah, for sure. Like, if that's your goal, like, but I like your point of like, you got to define what success is. And I talked to a guy surfer dude, like wave tribe, Derek dots, shout out to him. But like, basically he was like, I want to surf every day in front of business. And he has two hours every day that he allocates for surfing. Like for sure that two hours could be scaling the business more or business strategy, but it's like, no, on his terms, he's like, I want to serve everyday. And I think that's good to identify what those terms are, where for me recently, I've been like, I want an hour uninterrupted, no devices, nothing. I'm just going to think I'm going to write, I'm gonna think and whatever comes up, that's what comes up. So I think it's like stabs establishing those boundaries for yourself does wonders. Yeah, for sure. Cause there are things that I want to be unrelenting about, but most of them involve having a camera in my hand or loving my people and my dogs, you know, like those are what I want to be unrelenting in. And so sometimes, you know, something's got to give. And so like when I first picked up a camera, I'm sure you're the same with scopes. Like when I first started doing video, I was unrelenting. I would go out every day. I would find lacrosse tournaments in the middle of nowhere and I would shoot for free so that I could capture something and get a little bit better at pulling focus on a 200 millimeter lens. Yeah. I used to go on Craigslist to try to find people that like, let me shoot them. Nice. Yeah. I know. That's how he got to start that Crazy. But yeah, I would just put, I would put posts up on Craig's list and be like up, But that's where you'd begin though. Like, you know, you have a love for it then it's like your friends don't always need you a photograph. So like you gotta put yourself out there and be like, Hey, like you want me to take some photos of you? Yeah. Here you go. Which goes back to you saying like putting yourself out there is like, sometimes it's tough. Like you gotta send people dams and you're not sure what they're going to say. Same thing. Like I might've gotten no responses on that Craigslist ad, but I did. And like something came from it. So Yeah. Yeah. And I I'm like a big believer, like if an opportunity presents itself, like just take the call or whatever it is. And just, you never know where it's going to lead. I don't know. I've been meet some really cool people, internet, friends, and you know, I'm just like, yeah, this is sick. Like I've never met. I've only met like a handful of people actually in person from this business. But I can like send them to me email and they'll get back to me, which I think is really cool. Like the power of the internet in that aspect. Yeah. I think that's a weird thing with photography because there's like sort of two different schools of thought about like how you can be a professional photographer. The first one is about niche photography. It's about like I shoot cars. So when you look at my Instagram, it should only be cars because that's the only way people will know. You're a guy who shoots cars or there's the kind of like other side of the coin, which is the more Jack of all trades situation where you're a person who uses a camera for a living and says yes to the jobs that are coming in or, or whatever it is that you feel like filming that day. And when you look at that, person's Instagram, it should be more of a mixture of different styles and, and subject matters. And both of those things can survive. But I think that the niche style of things is really amazing for someone who knows exactly what they want to do. But I think that a lot of kids who don't know exactly what they want their subject matter to be, feel like they can't because they don't know what it is. Or like, I think you could expand this more generally to life. Like, because you don't know what you're feeling, purpose-driven by that you feel like you can't do anything. And I feel like that's where like a truly unrelenting person with a camera can really succeed. Is those experiences, those people that you met through picking up that phone call or going to this job that didn't pay that much, or, you know, the sort of sum total of that, of like being out with your camera all the time will ensure that you have worked forever. And it may not be an entire Instagram of the same work, but you will always be meeting people. You will always be out in the world with your camera. And that is just as an important of a metric of success as the money, as the clients, as whatever is like, if you're out in the world with your camera experiencing new things, like that's the only thing that you can like achieve without making money, without having dope clients without any of that stuff. If you can find the fulfillment there, then you're going to be fine. Yeah. Absolutely love everything that you just said about that. You said you had to be smart at three or were you taking off? No, I just have a call at four. Thank you for that last strike. I Don't got a lot more to say. I feel like I'm vamping. We All are. I'm sorry, Chris. No, but yeah. So we'll do, we'll just wrap it up with the rapid fire then. Have you guys seen the movie Ferris Bueller's day off? Nope. No. Okay. That's fine. Basically. It's like a movie, a guy skipped school. Does what? Basically like we just as like the Ferris Bueller's day off question where it's like, if you could have an ideal sick day, no limitations. What are you doing on that? Got it. So that's the phrasing that we call for it. So don't worry. You're not the first people they haven't seen. Let me make sure One battery is probably the other, but right now, well, now we know that the Anna and Josh I've really enjoyed this conversation. Are you guys ready for the rapid fire questions? Let's do it. <inaudible> what is your favorite dog breed? Do we answer this together or separately? You just do like one in one. So we'll do Josh first and we'll do you give you a little more time to think about? Yeah. So what is your favorite dog breed? My favorite dog breed is a Husky. I've wanted Huskies since I was a little little kid and now I have two of them. So that's definitely Don Bree is the lab. Yeah. Yeah. For Sure. What is your favorite color? Blue. Black, red or white wine? Red. Red, yeah. Good choice. <inaudible> Is it? I haven't done it in person and especially with a couple as well. So this is interesting for me to say as well. We're like looking at each other right answer. I don't know. Yeah. Who is your favorite athlete? Oh, secretary yet. Okay. Great answer. Oh man. That's so tough because I've Worked as, so Mikey pal. I was a lacrosse player from when I was growing up and arguably the best short attack, man that ever lived. And I'm a short attack, man. So Yeah, it hit it. It hits home for you. Exactly. Why would it be your last meal? Cheeseburger, pizza. The look on your face, like pizza. It's your meal. It's your meal. It's a good thing. You're an awesome, Huge slices in Washington, DC that were like this big. And I think I'd take one of those. Yeah, absolutely. It sounds really good. If you could write a fortune cookie, what message would you write? I want you to go first. This was my first. I would say it's going to be okay. Yeah, it is. That's what I would say. Oh man. I would say you never have to work a day in your life. If you love what you do. There you go. And I got one more rapid fire and then we'll do our farewell question. What is your favorite memory of one another? Hmm, I think we're good. I think we have the same night. No, I don't know how you go first. All right. My favorite is seeing you 12,000 feet above Hawaii. Yeah. When we did our skydive together a week after we met, when I filmed your tandem, there was a moment where Brian held up a heart in front of you with his hands. And I remember seeing the heart in the air and I was like, I've only known this girl for a week, but I think that I'm in love. Oh, wow. That's awesome. Wait that's so did you notice, we've never talked about that. Oh wow. A tough act to follow you. Just say from the heart I saw his face. Yeah. This is like, not my <inaudible>. I know what night you're talking about that. All right. So one last question. It's our Ferris Bueller's day off. If you guys were having a day, an ideal sick day with no limitations, what are you guys doing on that day? We are skydiving and setting all of the animals that are in captivity. Free love. That just slows right down. I combined our two like unlimited days together from the sky. The only question that we really talked about before we got here, figuring out what it looked like, but yeah. I mean, I mean, yeah, yeah. I love it. Yeah. For weirdos. No, not at all. The animals need to be free. Josh working, everyone. Keep up with your work, plug it up. You can find us on Instagram at animal house visuals. Same thing with web and a lot of visuals.com. Yeah. Those are, those are the places that we want to see you guys and hear from you guys. So yeah, we're very responsive. So just shoot us a message and we will, and, and if you want to add something that you think is really unique in the wedding space, we want to see it. Yeah. Yeah. If you have like an idea, something crazy or like, you know, something that you think should be captured, we want to do it. That's awesome. Yeah. Definitely check out the work. It's really beautiful stuff and yeah. Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having us. Hey, let's go first one in the books. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend. This is the best way to help a podcast grow. But more importantly, this could provide some motivation to your friend to get a few more nos in your life. I've been using Anna's point on getting more nos. And I gotta say, it's pretty liberating when you ship failure into a celebration, when you shoot your shot and they say no, but that's the beginning of the conversation you've been acknowledged. And I I've really been finding this perspective. Awesome to see Josh and Anna's work, check out animal house visuals.com or their Instagram at animal house. Visuals really appreciate you listening and supporting our show. If you want to continue this conversation, check out our online community growth groups called Wolf packs trust to grind, Wolf packs gathered like-minded individuals like you to grow, encourage one another and deal with obstacles in life. So learn more@trustedgrind.co. Thank you so much. Have a great day.<inaudible>.